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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.02.07 11:53:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Spugg Galdon on 07/02/2010 11:53:16
I agree active tanking is completly borked. Especially amongst battle cruisers. I never active tank my Brutix/Myrmidon. I always shield tank them and squeeze as much DPS out of them as I can (http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/24328-Brutix-Shield-GANK.html).
The Hyperion is also very terribad. a 10% bonus would be a step in the right direction.
Edit... the support button
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.02.09 00:41:00 -
[2]
The Rokh is even worse off than the Hyperion when it comes to PG. The Rokh does have its sniping ability which gives it a niche/role to excell in even though this is debatable with the failure of Railguns and the power of frikkin' lazors.
The Hyperion is a ship that desperatly needs to be revisted and a larger bonus to active tanking would help.
People who say that active tanked ships will become 'invulnerable'..... please, have you ever neuted/been neuted an active tanked ship? They have no buffer and as soon as that capacitor dries up the ship is dead.
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.02.16 09:37:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Andreus LeHane
Two things to consider:
1. The non-viability of active tanks is related more to the fact that buffer tanks don't need to rely on capacitor to work, whereas a couple of Curses can tear a Hyperion's capacitor apart in a few cycles. If you want to restore active tanking's viability, something about capacitor management needs to change. Neuts need to get weaker, or boosters/reppers need to use less capacitor, or ships that are intended to be actively tanked need to get a bonus to booster/repper cap usage.
I disagree. Active tanks should be very strong but highly capacitor dependent. This should be where their vulnerabilty lies. You get heavily neuted... you're buggered. I think even 10% is a wishful boost. 9% is probably a good figure to request.
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.03.08 18:05:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Grut
Theres always going to be a tipping point between active and buffer as numbers increase, unless you nerf the crap out of buffer. If you buff active tanking so that tipping point is more then well 2 you endup with broken 1v1/2v2 mechanics and ships that are still useless past the tipping point in fleets, not to mention the hulls which are meant to active tank don't have the best fitting setups for large fights (mainly blasters/acs).
Wouldn't it be better to tweak the bonus to +10% to repair mod and +10% received rr? that way the ships in question stay usefull past the tipping point. The disadvantage over a resist bonus is 1/3 less primary buffer and the requirement of rr/active tank to use the bonus.
That part of your post I've bolded is a very good idea. Gives the ship two roles. Solo/small gang self rep BS and a fleet BS used with RR. The numbers need running but I think his is something to concentrate on.
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.03.11 09:59:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Spugg Galdon on 11/03/2010 10:06:08
Well looking at figures in EFT (which I hate doing cause it isn't really testing ideas) and looking at only third tier BS's in a remote rep role these are results I found (all lvl 5 skills no implants).
Abaddon:
DPS.......920 @ 15(+10)km (tracking 0.04129)
TANK......150k EHP with a defence efficiency of 394 (omni damage) with a single remote armour rep
Hyperion:
DPS.......1085 @ 4.5(+13)km (tracking 0.07036)
TANK......110k EHP with a defence efficiency of 253 (omni damgae) with a single remote armour rep
Rohk:
DPS.......748 @ 6.8(+13)km (tracking 0.05412)
TANK......117k (124k w Invul overloaded) EHP with a defence efficiency of 394 (431 OL'd Invul)with a single remote shield rep
Maelstrom:
DPS.......1021 @ 3.5 (+31)km (tracking 0.05913)
TANK.....95k (100k with invul OL'd) EHP with a defence efficiency of 268 (298 Invul OL'd) with a single remote shield rep
Now if we apply the idea of increasing the ammount of RR the Hyperion and Maelstrom recieve, say 7.5% / BS level the EFT defence efficiency figures would be far closer to their competitors. Does anyone bleive this would create an imbalance or do youthink that it gives the Hyp and Mael a fleet role instead of just relegating them to solo/very small gang work as the local rep bonus becomes useless vs more than 2 or three ships.
So in summary.... what this thread would be requesting is that the active tank bonus be increase to 10% per lvl of armour repairer/ shield boost ammount and 7.5% bonus to RR recieved but only in armour for hype and shield for mael.
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.03.11 13:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Hmm compared to rokh vs maelstrom I see no reason to boost the mael,maybe after a blaster boost. So it is clr that maelstroms bonuses are fine-->no need for this active tank bonus boost.
Gotta love Amarr eh Naomi? They get the DPS, the range advantage, the buffer and the RR and Active tanking advantage.
The Maelstrom requires 150% more remote reppers to be on par with the Abaddon's remote rep tanking ability. The Maelstroms DPS is actually THE SAME as the Abaddons at 15km. The Hype does almost the same using Null at 15km. Unfortunatly the Rokh fails here too. Doing only 60% the DPS the other three ships offer  . So if the active tank boost goes forward the Rokh will need a boost to buffer to compensate. It all needs balancing out but we'll find a way in the end 
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.03.11 14:23:00 -
[7]
Sorry I'm a moron... didn't have any drones in the Rokh!.... updated above post
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:57:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Spugg Galdon on 11/03/2010 20:58:29
Originally by: Naomi Knight
So giving 7.5%/lvl for incoming remote rep is fine with me ,but not this 10%/lvl the op wants.
Btw it seems that armor tank >> shield ,what a surprise,maybe ccp should do something about that too.
Like increasing the base shield resists a little bit.
I agree that 10% is a little too much. Maybe 9% per level is a better figure (end result is 7.5% better @ lvl5 than current.
9%/lvl remote rep recieved looks like an excellent fix for the disparity between the resist bonus and the local boost bonus (according to EFT this would give slightly higher defence efficiency on a single remote rep than a ship with the resist bonus). I've only been checking out battleships with this idea and it looks perfect.
Yes the Rokh needs either a slight boost to base shield resists or a boost to base shield ammount to balance it all out with a good buffer. I would prefer the latter as better resists = better RR tanking.
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.03.14 17:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Arthur Black
I would not like to see any sort RR bonus on the ships in questions. Take the Hyperion for instance. What would you do be doing in a RR gang with a 8-turret ship? Drop one gun for a RR? You're not going to be accepted in a RR BS gang without a RR module. Hence, bring the Megathron.
If you're talking about dedicated logistics support, well, that could work, but it's already been stated that active tanking ships work best in very small and/or solo engagements. You're not going to have dedicated logistics around for those.
Why make this more convoluted than it needs to be? The original idea presented is simple, easy, and makes sense (and still has my support).
There is a disparity between the usefulness between the armour/shield resist bonus and the armour repair bonus in that the resist bonus works well with a buffer tank, an active tank and spider tanking. The active tank bonus is also useless when the ship is used in larger than very small scale PvP whereas the resist bonus is useful as either a buffer or a remote rep. Dropping a turret for a remote rep is not that big of a deal when it comes to it, In fact, in some instances we use dual RR fits on our megs's in my corp when in fleet BS fights. 9% per level to armour repair amount and remote repair recieved looks like it would work very well amongst the 3rd tier BS's (haven't checked the BC's yet) with some other tweaking of these ships stats ALL the 3rd teir BS's would bcome very useful, well rounded ships that can be used in small/large fleet engagements or solo.
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.03.14 18:27:00 -
[10]
I'm confused Naiomi. Why have you asked for that in here? I also disagree, Caldari are the kinetic race. But we're going way off topic now 
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